(with many thanks for the transcript to Dax Phandi)

 Jeremy Vines: This is Jeremy Vines on Radio 2. George Michael has walked in, welcome to you.

George Michael: Good Morning.

Jeremy Vines: We'll speak very, very shortly before...ehh...actually after Two Moons by Adam Sneider. Do you like this record, see what you think.

[ Song plays here ]

Jeremy Vines: That's Adam Sneider and Two Moons, the organizers of nex month's Oscar ceremony. A good cause to be nervous from the Brits to the Grammies, pop stars and film stars have been making most of the annual round of award ceremonies to speak out against the war with Iraq. One of the biggest names to step up to the mike has been the singer,
George Michael. He made a virtual appearance at the Brit Awards last week, dueting on video with the hip hop artist Ms Dynamite on a reworked version of his 1988 hit Faith. And the first verse was rewritten to include a strong anti-war message. We'll hear it again actually in a few minutes time. Welcome here, George.

George Michael: Thank you.

Jeremy Vines: Tell us, first of all, are you against war on Iraq [George coughs] period, or just against war on Iraq in these circumstances.

George Michael: Oh, absolutely, its the latter. I mean, I don't think, I mean I'm against war as a principle. I really can't believe that these days we can can't...umm...we can't remove...uhh...the type of character that Saddam Hussain is without killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people. I find it really hard to believe. Uhm ... BUT ... no, my
main objection to this is the ludicrous timing of all the whole thing. Y'know, the ludicrous timing, the risk it puts us at to pretend that its not ludicrous timing, y'know. And to ignore what most...uhh... of these people who call themselves fundamentalists, but people that are basically murderers are murderers to me. The fact that their thoughts are regardless of whether its true, the fact that their thoughts are that Palestine and .. uhh ...this situation in Iraq are linked, is the most incredibly dangerous thing and its almost like how can you protect yourself from your enemy if you wont admit to yourself what they're thinking.

Jeremy Vines: But if you want Saddam Hussain removed, and you don't want war, how on earth do you do it?

George Michael: Well, I don't I'm not really I'm not pretending to know anything about the strategy for removing Saddam when it actually comes to it, I'm just saying this is a ridiculous, ridiculous point in time to do it. There are two things that make it ridiculous, one is the activity in the west bank, and again I don't presume to understand the complexities in the Middle East and I don't presume I can understand the...totally understand the position of...uhh...the Jews, and they are incredibly protective of their land, they have a very, very distressing recent..umm..history... and I don't expect ..uhh.. REAL rational thoughts on either side at the moment, y'know what I mean. In that sense, I don't know really, I can't experience either of those feelings so I wouldn't presume to guess, but what I do know that is that is the kind of powder cake of Islamic fundamentalists around the world, and that is something that both Bush and Blair seem to want to avoid altogether...I mean...NOT

Jeremy Vines: If...If...

George Michael: As I said, these things are not connected what's, what's important is that they're believed to be connected, by terrorists around the world.

Jeremy Vines: While you were coming into the building, we were interviewing the labour left winger Anne Cluit, and she took a very unusual interesting position in the debate yesterday. She actually voted with the Prime Minister.

George Michael: Uhm..hmmm.

Jeremy Vines: And she voted with the Prime Minister because she recently came from Kurdistan.

George Michael: Uhm..hmmm.

Jeremy Vines: And she saw what Saddam Hussain had been doing to Kurds in Northern Iraq.

George Michael: Uhm..hmmm.

Jeremy Vines: And she told for example, the story of the university teacher, who had given birth in prison, wasn't given milk for her child. The child then died and the mother held the baby for three days, would not give the body up. And when finally they had to do something, they just killed the mother as well.

George Michael: Uhm..hmmm.

Jeremy Vines: Now... wouldn't it be worth attacking Baghdad to get rid if the dictator who presides over there.

George Michael: But of course it would, of course it would and of course it would be worth attacking ... uh... various regimes large and small around the world to try and I mean if it would... its not that these things are irrelevant. They're terrible relevant and ... ehhmmm...and they're very important in terms of how we deal with the future...ehh...the immediate future is a different thing and also unfortunately we know that, that there is a selective...help being offered here. We know there are terrible things going on in, in, in,
various parts of the world which have been sanctioned now and in the past by western governments because it suits us when it suits us and because it does no...it no longer suits America to ... uhm... to...umh... I mean I think in really in the interest of America if I was an American I think I would say uhh...I think many, many people, many Americans feel the same way that I do but of course many, Americans DON'T because they're dealing with a brand new...umm...form of war, they're dealing with the idea of terrorism and the idea at the moment ... they have a ... the government, I think, has proved...convinced them
that they can somehow protect them from the likes the, the of September the 11th by attacking Saddam Hussain at this moment in time, which I think is a complete false.

Jeremy Vines: That is the other argument being given, the one, that's nothing to do with protecting the Iraqis but is to do with protecting London and New York and Washington.

George Michael: Well, you...exactly

Jeremy Vines: and these chemical weapons...

George Michael: exactly...

Jeremy Vines: it, it... does that not hold water though if it has been proven that Saddam Hussain has these stock piles.

George Michael: I think its actually, I think, what I think is all of these arguments...the...the...arguments I've heard going backwards and forwards of this type are the precise reasons I felt I needed to comeout and talk because I think all of those in pop...uhh...I don't minimize any of those...uh...arguments and I think many us in the country are fully aware of all of these arguments. But, the fact is, that a point in time
where...post-September the11th, we have to make a choice, I think out international leaders have to make a choice on our behalf, but we have to pressure them that this...that the way to look at the future is not to pretend that we can...we can control the anger of various fundamentalist groups around the world and that we can control ...umm...the spread of
y'know uranium and plutonium and the building of individual nuclear devices. We cannot control these things. Let's not pretend that we can.
Its very tempting for governments to pretend that we can. Because its their fault that these things are out there. Y'know, we didn't create the atomic bomb to protect ourselves, y'know, they did! And now they're saying we created the preemptive strike to protect you from the future. I'm sorry, I think it's the most dangerous invention. Just as the oncept since the atomic bomb.

Jeremy Vines: But isn't the...al...alternative that you're suggesting that we should all sit back and wait to be attacked.

George Michael: No, of course not! No, I don't believe that at all. I think that, what I'm trying to say is that the large argument awful lot people out there are...um...making is that if September the 11th should not be seen as something that was the beginning of a period where we go into this, this, um, this whole...uhh... idea of changing the way we live, diminishing our democracy and, and working on a completely defensive and neurotic basis, which I'm sorry, but American policy has always done. Right? And I've this feeling that American, the whole idea of defensive strategy in America is deep-rooted in their culture as is their gun ... umm...culture...which is the basically, America...the pioneers needed a gun by their bed 'cause the chances were they kicked someone of their land or they killed someone to get that land, right? So you needed a gun by your bed, the whole idea of defensive, being the defensive white European is a very, very old idea and I don't think we particularly need that idea here. I think we should look post-September the 11th at talking. Trying to understand that this is the beginning of a very, very distressing conversation between East and West, rich and poor, who've been brought together incredibly abruptly by global tech...uh...global media and the idea of technology. These people can now see us the way we can see them.

Jeremy Vines: Now, you are George Michael the pop star of course, and we're getting e-mails and calls from out listeners about the fact that you're speaking out about the war when in fact some say your job is to sing songs instead.

George Michael: Of course it is.

Jeremy Vines: Diane Bonnem...lemme read a couple of calls. Diane Bonnem e-mailed and she's please she says she's delighted that an influential person like George Michael is using the strength of his media attentionto bring such an important message across to a diverse population which is often confused by political wording and spin. However, James Goodman
e-mails -

George Michael: HOWEVER!

(Laughter)

Jeremy Vines: I think it ....

(Laughter)

George Michael: (Laughs)

Jeremy Vines reads: I think its wrong that these celebrities get involved in politics. They're here to entertain us not to try and sway our judgment on political issues. I wouldn't like to hear Tony Blair sing, he says, just like I don't care about George Michael's opinion on the Iraq war. He's abusing his status and he's not been furnished with all the facts. What do you say to that?

George Michael: I think I've been furnished with as many facts as just about anyone who had...I'm not ...I'm not... y'know at the end of the day I've done two or three interviews in political situations where I'm thankful that you're not patronizing me, by the way. Because every other situation that has been considered slightly high-browed, you think I was 22, still running around in shorts, y'know. I'm a 39 year old man, who reads the broad sheets, who watches the television, watches too much television actually, and...um...has as much information, y'know I've read Michael Moore's book, it absolutely incensed me. I've had as much information as most people who are talking about this, unless somehow yhe politic...politicians are privy to some kind of incredibly...uh...different information. I mean, let's all be honest, we've been waiting for that information.

Jeremy Vines: Do you think though you may have the information, does an artist, though, have a stronger, louder voice than other people.

George Michael: I mean, that's all I have. I mean ultimately, I have no right to be talking anymore than the person who lives in the house next door to me, and actually you should, you should see the person... [laughs]

Jeremy Vines: [laughs] Well, I don't know who that is, but they probably sell as many records as you do -

George Michael: Absolutely.

Jeremy Vines: And that's what gives you the right to talk.
  
George Michael: No it doesn't give me a right, it gives me an pportunity. I'm here because you'll have me on here. Y'know, the fact is everyone has a right to protect themselves and their families and their way of life when they...with their voice, for Christ's sake, this is a democracy. I think this is really frightening the number of people whether its just that they don't like pop stars or they don't like George Michael, or they don't like, y'know, who I am. Its kind of frightening to me that this is such a harped-on idea. This is a democracy. This is a...that's what we're fighting for, this is what we're talking about. Y'know, ultimately, people being in their place and only...and leaving the talking to the politicians. I'm sorry, but the way the politics...politicians of today act and the denial they seem to go into, y'know, as [ ??? ] said: "Politics is way too much important to leave to the politicians these days".

Jeremy Vines: Do you feel comfortable with the fact that your record ales give you more influence even in this area than the average politician has?

George Michael: Uh, I don't feel comfortable with any of this. I don't wanna be here. Ultimately, ummm, I did the whole ... when I released the single I didn't really wanna do that. Against all advice, I did it against record company advice, managerial advice, everybody was frightened for me, either personally or on a professional level, but ultimately, y'know, some people ­ there are some people like myself who are overly opinionated, maybe. But, ultimately, think they're trying to do something for, for others as well as, y'know, I mean what is this, that is this to do for me. This is bad for my career, this is bad for just about everything I can think of, other than the, the, the privilege of being able to get across a point of view in a very urgent situation
that you think is not being heard.

Jeremy Vines: Alright. And we heard it at the Brits and George, if its alright with you, we want to just hear your duet with Ms. Dynamite...

George Michael: Kinda, Kind of cheery

Jeremy Vines: ...at the Brits. You were on video, that's right, but she was singing. Let's just hear it now.

[ George Michael & Miss Dynamite's Faith at Brits 2003 is played ]

Jeremy Vines: That's Faith, from Brits the duet between Ms. Dynamite and George Michael. George is with me now. The first words of the song rewritten to say 'I don't wanna see children die no more, so I gottamake a stand, can you hear my voice, taking a life is only God's choice. I don't want blood on my hands.' Difficult decision to rewrite that song?

George Michael: I didn't rewrite that bit. Bits that she sang, she rewrote, and bits that basically, umm, basically she asked me if I would perform, because she wanted to, she actually said she was gonna do 'Faith' for the Brits, and I thought that was wicked, y'know, because I love her and her album and I think she's really cool. Umm...but she said, y'know you can get involved to a degree you like, and at that time, I'll be honest with you, I wasn't intending to be here this week, I only decided to do this stuff last minute, just because I was getting so frustrated and panicked at how little time we have to try and...y'know...I mean, I was just set, fed up of hearing Tony Blair and Jack Straw going n and on about the same argument again and again, and wanting to say YES, BUT, y'know...and, uh, I agree with you, BUT. And I thought, I just felt very frustrated. And the faith thing was going to be my only contribution, actually. Which is 'cause she asked and I wasn't gonna be involved in this at all anymore. But then she asked me, and I said would it be OK if we kind of adapted it to become, kind of anti-war thing 'cause she wasn't sure whether I wanted to do that. She said, yeah that'd be cool. So I did my bit, recorded it, made a video of it and then [laughs] actually, when I saw the Brits on...on the Thursday night, that was the first time I heard what she was going to sing or write. I had no idea how she had rewritten it, 'cause I didn't [laughs] get to see her nor hear of her actually.

Jeremy Vines: Might I take from that, that you're weren't too happy or you were happy?

George Michael: No, it was alright, I mean, y'know, it came out fine and, and she y'know, she wrote some cool little words and...and...uhh...it was just a bit strange 'cause I'd expected us to kind of, uh, collaborate a little bit and as it turned out it wasn't, it wasn't the, it wasn't me being off in LA somewhere, I just couldn't get her, she, I couldn't on the phone.

Jeremy Vines: You couldn't get hold of her?

George Michael: You have to text her. [Laughs] You can't, she doesn't listen to her messages, you have to text her, so I was kinda busily texting her, and she kept saying 'Well, I'm coming down tomorrow." So, uh, actually as it turns out , considering that we never actually got together on it, it went very well, I think.

Jeremy Vines: Gotta be a big star to say put George Michael on hold, haven't you?

George Michael: I know, she's quite like that, isn't she. But I think that's quite cool, I was quite impressed with her, actually.

Jeremy Vines: You released the controversial Shoot the Dog single, which ad a provocative and quite famous video with it, with George Bush and Tony Blair and Cherry Blair [George: Uhm..hmmm.] as cartoon figures doing various things with and to each other. It wasn't a commercial success. Do you think if you try too hard to jam a message into a song you end up diluting your work as a singer?

George Michael: No, I don't think so. I mean, I think the truth is people would love to say that, y'know, how did he go from, from, y'know, Wake me up before you go-go, to world statesman in his own mind. But, and I would say to them, that actually I've got a piece of political writing all over my career. My first record was about the dull, y'know, my fourth or fifth hit Wham! Record was about being married too early, umm, uhh, and on the idea of that I wrote a song about Thatcher for Faith, I mean, its not like I, I, have never put these thoughts into anything. I just was very, very, uhmmm, very strong this time coz I
thought this was the most important [ clears throat ] if I was ever going to align a single or do something very, very mainstream with a political idea, it had to be now really. And I don't think I've rammed the message too hard. I think the truth is, I actually, I was the first man out the trenches. I was about as hard to hit as Pavarotti, ah, as I've said before. And, and I've really, it was too early for people to think about it. They didn't want to. They weren't being encouraged to, y'know.

Jeremy Vines: And you've taken a pasting for it?

George Michael: Yeah, I took a HUGE pasting and the record died, the radio was too afraid to play it; and that's another issue. Totally different issue. But I don't wanna get cut off on radio too. So, the radio, I was told the radio would not play, the, the, the B wouldn't, the ILR stations wouldn't, I was told y'know, that everyone's afraid of the government for their licenses, blah-blah. I didn't believe it actually! To be really honest, I was naïve. I thought 'No, it's a hit single, y'know, the video is hysterical' because I realized people were frightened and...

Jeremy Vines: But at the end of all that, sorry, sorry to drop it, but oes that mean now that in the States you're persona no Greta?

George Michael: I don't know, its been hard to tell. I don't. It depends on how many people read the New York post, really. I mean, what happened was I made a political single which is something I would've been attacked for on a reasonably... uhh...predictable...erm...basis, but I've made he huge mistake, in, in most people's, in terms of y'know what we would want to do, I made the huge mistake, although I don't regret it for a moment, of talking to Daily Mirror. At the moment when the Daily Mirror and the Sun's editors were totally, I mean the Sun's editor has gone ow, which is a terrible shame, but the, the...erm...the battle between Pierce Morgan and David [???] at the time, I got well in caught in the  middle. What they did was libelous stuff they'd print in New York first, in their sister paper the New York Post, and then that way if I wanted to sue for liable I'd have to sue under American law, right? And they could feed it back to the Sun, and this little triangle went on between the Sun, and the New York Post and Sky News, or rather Sky News Active, where there was this kind of thing that went on where the political message got completely lost in the idea, that I was committing commercial suicide. And, and also consequently that gave radio an excuse to stay away from something they was gonna upset ten...uh...Mr. Blair in Downing Street. So, and much as seen, as, as, completely neurotic, sorry, completely paranoid as that sound I did not believe that was gonna happen. But it did.

Jeremy Vines: We're now in a situation that we've just been discussing. A hundred and twenty-one Labour MPs vote...

George Michael: Uhm..hmmm.

Jeremy Vines: in the same lobby you would be going through, I presume, if you were in the House of Commerce. You have also some other younger pop-bands, some of these so-called boy bands, deciding they might do a, some kind of anti-war version of Band Aid. And, and you're worried about that?

George Michael: Well, I'm not, to be honest, I'm not worried about it. I just think, y'know, excuse me, do you know what date it is, for a start. Its, its, y'know, this is, how quickly are you gonna get that done and what's it gonna do? Its like...I do understand if, the, I'm really, if I've motivated people then I really shouldn't be slaggin' 'em off, I
know. But I'm just trying to say, y'know, there is a big difference in being an entertainer and being a writer. And if you've made your living out of your, your, HEART, and, and of the things you think, which most of the people on the Band Aid record really did. They were a lot of big writers and artists, people who ultimately, that's part of their career. If you're, if you're, if you're in a boy band or if you're in, in a vast majority of the bands that rap now, um, of course they should express their opinion but I would just say that there is a lot of effort that looks very, it will be looked upon with extremely low, little, um, its good to inspire kids, so I probably shouldn't have said what I said, but
ultimately I don't, I think that the first Band Aid effort was a very, very genuine thing and it was done as kinda, something to bring world tension to something...

Jeremy Vines: You think they might sound naïve?

George Michael: I, I think they might sound naïve, and I think it, to be honest with you, even though its well intentions, and I think its really good, I think it's a little, too little too late really.

Jeremy Vines: Just to round up, George Michael, you are in a situation now where you're, you're rich and famous and you know you don't have to record another record. What makes you stay creative?

George Michael: Uhm, I think the ability to [ cough ] constantly question myself, and question life and, and to feel all that...uhh...my music is a result of my life, as opposed to my life being a result of my music.

Jeremy Vines: You have to have, you to connect to your audience. You've gotta share things with them, and one presumes you share less and less.

George Michael: No, I think I share, uhh, I think I share far more with people than, than, someone who does the society circles or that's in Hello! every week. Do you know what I mean? I mean, that's the world I can't really make head nor tail of. I, I live a very quite life. I live, uhh, y'know, I eat out most, I see people all the time, I'm quite sociable, I go and get my groceries everyday, and I go and get my gara- I go and fill my car in the garage. I don't live surrounded by some kind of blankets of celebrity. So I think I actually share quite a lot. Which is why I get quite passionate about things that affect all of us, really. I don't really, I don't see any particular value in, in my celebrity life.

Jeremy Vines: And the fact, that the industry that you're in as was worn out with the, your big lawsuit with Sony, is now so market driven, so mechanical, does that not still wear you down?

George Michael: Well, I think actually, what happened, I mean, y'know, people will think that the, I'm, uh, overstating the case, but I genuinely believe, I, tell you what, I saw the BAFTA's last week.  And as speaking as someone from an, uh, industry which is completely crumbled in terms of creativity, and which is now, y'know, its very sad as someone who can consider themselves a pop star, not a rock star, I never wanted, y'know, I never had some big guitar [...] thing attached to me, and I'm not gonna go down that road -

Jeremy Vines: [Laughs] Y'know, this actually -

George Michael: Y'know what I'm saying, y'know what I'm saying! I was a pop star, and always been proud of being a pop star. Never NEEDED to be a rock star. But pop has become another word for corporate now. It basically means that you play or perform something which has been put together, either writers and producers, put together by a marketing man
 and then you're the front man. And that, that is not pop music to me ­that's just corporate entertainment. And there's nothing wrong with that, people love that. But, its not what I wanted to be. Y'know, and I find myself completely stuck in a , in a, in a dwindling, uhm, uhh, business that has almost no integrity or, or music left in it in terms of pop anyway. Y'know. All the best music is in sub-cultures now. No one wants to pay anybody. [ Light laugh ] Which is quite classic considering I really, even thought yes I was trying to get out of an incredibly bad contract, uhm, I did really fight the Sony battle with a certain amount of principle in mind, and considering that it took two and half years out of my career, when ten years later, people let alone record companies wanted to pay the artist, the people don't wanna pay the artist. Downloading is crushing the industry. And we've got these two things going on at the same time. Huge, uhm, eh, huge uh blow from the, from the technology of downloading PLUS the peak of the kind of cumulative, eh, erm, effect of terrible, terrible corporate A&R for the last twenty years.

Jeremy Vines: George Michael, thank you very much indeed for coming and talking to us on Radio 2 today.

George Michael: Thank you, it was very cheery wasn't it?

[ Laughter ]

Jeremy Vines: I found it cheery. This is ... 
[ Goes on to play a record ]

<<transcript by Dax Phandi>>